Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Robert Kesler — Mon, 28 Dec 2009 05:08:26 GMT

I fully understand your logic. The only problem that we ran into is with the Perspective you will not get any presentation of the WAAS Glide slope until the next fix is the FAF. If you are expecting to see the the WAAS Glide Slope indication it is a little disconcerting when you get on final and are expecting to see the indication and you do not have it. You will eventually get it when the FAF is the next fix, however if you are not aware of this limitation and you are in the weather and expecting to see it, it really gets your attention. For this reason, activating the "Vectors to Final" will ensure that when on final you will have the WAAS Indication.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Mark Zurmuhlen — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:09:05 GMT

I second it's all excellent information! I too have been in a pickle fumbling for that fix the is MIA from my flight plan. When I get my WAAS installation errors fixed I will do tryouts on the suggestions in this discussion. I agree we have to try them all and then stick with what works best!

I fully upgraded to WAAS in April 2008 and now have a plane that tracks approximately 2500 ft left of course, blows through all waypoints and then performs slow s-turns back and forth, 3 or 4 times before settling down on the new course, regardless of approach, terminal or en route modes. I have additionally replaced the roll trim servo hoping the newer more sensitive version would correct the problem (suggested by my "new" SC). Yes, it helped, but... not quite enough. I still can not couple any approaches in IMC with confidence.

My WAAS upgrade was installed and was never flight tested by that avionics facility to verify their ground installation. My plane is scheduled to return to avionics for fine tuning and they will hopefully find the problem with their installation and correct it.

WAAS Rules!!

Mark Zurmuhlen

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

John Fiscus — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:55:08 GMT

Excellent discussion, all! I'm glad to see so much thought going in to this.

We all took a bit of a break for the holidays so my apologies for the delays in response to specific questions. I'll attempt to answer them here:

David wrote:

"Couldn't you also push HDG-NAV-APP and this would allow automatic sequencing and switching the garmin from gps to vloc with slewing of the in bound course? I'd just like a short cut from having to remember to activate, hit vloc and dial in the inbound during the most intense phase of the flight."

Some clarification: the autopilot will not make the Garmin auto sequence or switch between GPS and VLOC mode on the CDI. I think you knew that when you posted but in reading it I wanted to make sure any others reading would understand. Your method would probably work but you'll still want to be sure to verify VLOC when you're on final. In fact, assuming you've got a segment of the final already activated (per Erin's discussion above), you could switch the VLOC immediately after the CDI slews around to final. GPSS is still possible if you want to use it (the autopilot doesn't care what mode the CDI is in when operating in GPSS).

Personally, I'm a fan of letting auto-slew set my final on the CDI. Just goes to show there are a few ways to skin this cat (as Scott mentions too). There are pitfalls to each one of them and it's really up to each pilot to find a way that works, use it, and stick to procedure. Further, look for those pitfalls I mentioned, they're there for almost every procedure! In any case, excellent query.

Gary wrote:

"I dont usually activate vectors either but had a problem when shooting the ILS 16 at KHPN. The 430 wouldnt let me remove the hold at HESTR when using HESTR as the Transition a message came up on the 430 Invalid flight plan modification. when using activate vectors to final with no TRANS. the hold went away. Not sure why?"

I think I can shed some light on this. If you load the approach to the ILS 16 at HPN (I like that airport, btw. The controllers are always nice to me) via HESTR, the Garmin interprets that as you saying you're going to do a procedure turn (in this case, the procedure turn is a hold) as a course reversal. You can't remove the hold because it's the only way to perform the course reversal (ie: it's integral to the approach that you do the hold but if you're coming straight in, you wouldn't load it this way). When you selected Vectors as the transition, the Garmin understands you're going to get on final and continue in, thus removing the hold. If you want to give me a call and talk more in-depth about it, feel free.

Bob wrote:

"In your example you say .... "Then I push the FPL key, get my cursor and highlight the FA (in this example, DEASY), push MENU and choose "ACTIVATE LEG?". '

Wouldn't you actually highlight ESCON and activate the leg HOMLY-ESCON with the autopilot set HDG NAV or HDG NAV APR ?"

That is definitely a way to achieve this task, assuming you're going to pass over ESCON (otherwise it wouldnt' cycle to the next leg). The part that I think Erin left out but I can add, having flown this approach, is that the heading ATC gives occasionally will have you intercepting final insdie ESCON. If this were to happen, and ESCON was the active (next) waypoint, it wouldn't cycle as you didnt' fly over it.

Your method would probably work most of the time and there's an easy workaround if you do intercept inside ESCON (which is to just activate VTF). I think the point is that both methods have their weaknesses (Erin's would give DME to DEASY and thus you couldn't report DME to ESCON, yours would run the above mentioned risk of intercepting inside ESCON and having to react by activating VTF to get sequencing to continue). However, they're both good methods for dealing with a rather complex situation. Good input!

Bendrix wrote:

"Question for any FAR experts; what are the requirements for a Controller when they have given the pilots a Vectors To Final clearance and started giving the vectors? Are they not required to continue supplying vectors all the way to the final approach course?"

As I read the regs, the controllers are indeed required to either give you vectors finishing with a final heading to get established on a published segment of the approach OR give you an instruction to proceed directly to a fix on the approach. Looking at section 5-4-3 in the AIM seems to confirm this.

My experience has been similar to yours that if you ask ATC for something or suggest an alternative to their initial requiest, 9 times out of 10 you'll get what you ask for. They're pretty cool about helping out.

-John Fiscus

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Bendrix Bailey — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:09:00 GMT

I had a similar experience at KPYM on the ILS06 flying vectors to final in solid IFR. The controller gave me direct to a fix, which of course did not appear in the flight plan. Rather than get in a dither about entering the fix I just asked for a heading to the fix and kept Vectors to Final loaded. Later I went out in VFR and played a bit with the automation to figure out what happened, and discovered what you put here for us (thanks by the way).

I also discovered that you can get FAR behind the aircraft while loading approaches and making changes that have unexpected consequences, like unloading approaches you think you have loaded and sending the autopilot off on its own. For example, if you tried pressing direct to (the fix) and activting that you would unload the approach so upon arriving at the fix the autopilot would not follow the approach course. Attempting to reaload and activate VTF will unload the direct to fix, and so on. Can be very confusing in hard IFR moving at 120kt.

Here is a problem. There are a number of fixes out on the 06 approach and they are particular to the type of approach. There is a GPS and an ILS. The only fixes that will show up on the flight plan are those for the approach you loaded...

My solution may be crude, but I would continue to load and when given vectors, activate Vectors To Final as always. This was the first and only time I have been given a fix rather than a heading on VTF. If given a fix, I just ask for the heading to the fix and plug it in. Then if you want you can start spinning up chart pictures to see where that fix is and make sure it is on the final approach course. Although the picture chart is not to be used for navigation, it is accurate and could provide guidance to maintaining altitude till past the fix. My experience with ATC is that they are not picky about giving help like that.

Question for any FAR experts; what are the requirements for a Controller when they have given the pilots a Vectors To Final clearance and started giving the vectors? Are they not required to continue supplying vectors all the way to the final approach course?

Nice discussion though, and great example that is well explained.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Bob Urschel — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:56:53 GMT

Erin,

I'm looking forward to practicing this. On more than one occasion I've found myself manually entering some fix that was on the chart but somehow mysteriously disappearing from my flight plan!

In your example you say .... "Then I push the FPL key, get my cursor and highlight the FA (in this example, DEASY), push MENU and choose "ACTIVATE LEG?". '

Wouldn't you actually highlight ESCON and activate the leg HOMLY-ESCON with the autopilot set HDG NAV or HDG NAV APR ?

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Buster Offutt — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:32:52 GMT

Thanks guys. these are all good" ways to skin" the proverbial cat. I think mainly it is what you get used to doing, and if your training and real life experiences prove that out to be a safe procedure for you, then stick with that.

I find like others at times by reading thru the posts that a modification or refined technique one of my fellow Cirri drivers has discovered, and have implemented it, and improved my own procedure. fly safe fly often, happy new year Buster O.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Gary Bulzan — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:00:41 GMT

I dont usually activate vectors either but had a problem when shooting the ILS 16 at KHPN. The 430 wouldnt let me remove the hold at HESTR when using HESTR as the Transition a message came up on the 430 Invalid flight plan modification. when using activate vectors to final with no TRANS. the hold went away. Not sure why ?

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Stuart McClay Smith — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:26:45 GMT

Another twist, on a GPS approach I never "activate" the approach. I use your method above and intercept the final approach course by activating the leg that I will intercept. Too many unexpected things can happen. If you have loaded the approach with a specific transition and subsequently activate it under GPSS, your airplane will turn to the first fix on the transition, even if you have been vectored inside of it.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Scott Dennstaedt — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:50:24 GMT

Couple of comments Erin.

You say, "You see NONE of the other waypoints that appear on your paper approach chart!" Maybe a more accurate statement is that you see none of the waypoints outside of the FAF. If there are stepdown fixes inside the FAF, they will be included.

Still another choice and the one that I prefer is to bring up a bearing pointer to MZB. When the tail of the bearing pointer says 002, then you are at ESCON.

You say, "and the autopilot can still inercept final and track it in GPSS mode, no matter how far out on final you happen to capture the course."

If this were a GPS or RNAV approach, that would be great. Personally, I wouldn't want to be switching the CDI to the localizer after tracking the GPS course inbound especially if you are vectored close in. Instead I would intercept the localizer course using the autopilot in APR mode with the CDI set to the localizer. That way I can monitor the localizer signal as I am approaching it and identify that the front course is set. I wouldn't want to discover the localizer was not functional or the wrong course was set as I am approaching glideslope intercept.

Here's an article in IFR magazine that I wrote about this very issue. I have a slightly different method to deal with this issue:

See: www.chesavtraining.com/.../Dennstaedt_Waypoints_Go_AWOL.pdf.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

Frank Convertini — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:55:55 GMT

Wish I read your thread before I got caught in that trap. I now do exactly what you suggest and forget the Vectors to Final.

re: Activate Vectors to Final? Nope.

David Rittenhouse — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:26:30 GMT

Good advice. Couldn't you also push HDG-NAV-APP and this would allow automatic sequencing and switching the garmin from gps to vloc with slewing of the in bound course? I'd just like a short cut from having to remember to activate, hit vloc and dial in the inbound during the most intense phase of the flight.